A herd of caribou, a school of fish, a pack of wolves, a flock of starlings, they all manage themselves well, since forever, without government or even thumbs for that matter. Much to learn from them.
Let's see. Roads already suck, we're already terrorized by a nation wide street gang, and are ruled over by murderous warlords. Can't be any worse that's for sure.
In an anarchy we could take care of the murderous warlords if need be. The way it is now, you're a "bad guy" if you were to identify such people and eliminate them.
Actually your "joke" is quite accurate. Which is why you are having the responses you are. I sure saw it as accurate! Roads SUCK. The nation wide street gang is the Highway Patrol of every state, and the murderous warlords are in every county enforcing the edicts of their masters in the state houses and national legislatures. So if your intention really was a joke, you need to look closer at what you are saying because it is a TRUE joke.
That set of circumstances is ENTIRELY constructed by the Rat Bastard Servants of the Psychotard Oligarchs that are committing the fraud we refer to as "Covid" and the genocide "solution" to that fraud. It COULD be a LOT worse, but we are not going to let that happen, not for long, anyway, because that will be when the scales fall from so many eyes that our road conditions will be clear.
Can't disagree with you though. Obviously could be much worse no matter the societal setup. Just like to try to keep my sanity with what are sometimes dumb and misplaced jokes. If ya can't laugh at this shit, it'll drive ya mad
Here's just one possibility. Insurance companies would have an incentive to prevent property crimes, assaults and murders in order to prevent paying for insured losses. If there's a need for something, the free market will find a way to supply it.
I think LOCAL police are fine. FROM the area they work.
The thing about locality is that when people feel things are not right, they can address the ones responsible FACE TO FACE. This goes a long way to creating a means of addressing things in a community, as opposed to some overlord bunch far far away who don't know you, don't care about you, and are usually pretty keen on overstepping their authority for some kind of reward, usually monetary. It's complicated, and so I think localization would be a far better thing, at least until we figure out a better way.
If the local police are paid for from a voluntary agreement, fine. If they are paid from theft taken from people by force, I'm against that. "Mercenaries" are what most police are as it stands. Rex has a point that was written about by Robert Murphy in Chaos Theory. Excellent read and you can get it for free here: https://mises.org/library/chaos-theory-two-essays-market-anarchy-0
I'm ALWAYS against taking things from people by force, with one exception: I think the wealth that is currently hoarded by the Evil Psychotard Oligarchy should be taken by force FORTHWITH and distributed among all the peeps of the world... And since those EPO have 90% of the wealth of the world, we'd all be able to do Great Things and still have some savings.
^_^
And thanks for that link, I'll go check it out. Cheers, Lion! xo
The Evil Psychotard Oligarcy have wealth that has been stolen from the people by fraud and deceit, which in the case of the international Banksters, it should be taken from them and distributed as you suggest. However, if they actually earned it like some have, and they are using it for the benefit of mankind, like I see that Elon is doing to a good degree, maybe they should be left alone to their pursuits. The only thing I have against Musk is his use of "money" that was loaned by the psychopaths administering government. He did, however, pay it all back in a timely manner. I have no issue how much wealth someone has, as long as it was made by an honest endeavor. People like Bill Gates, Mark Suckerberg, Klaus Snob, Georgie Soros, Rockefellers, Carnegies, Warburgs, Chairman Xiden...not so much!
I'm with you, man! Also, "don't be a parasite" made me laugh out loud! It's so true. The parasites are the ones that call us the troublemakers. They only know how to invert and pervert every thing.
This is right on. Every law includes the expense of enforcing that law. Without the power to enforce, statute laws are complete shit. Our legislators have been using the wrong end of the pencil for about 150 years (legislating far beyond their power to enforce). As the money system collapses, the forces in the economy that make cops flip their lights on and race to the donut shop are going to disappear. Without donuts, will cops even get out of bed anymore? Why would they even put the uniform on for no donut?
OK, everyone...I have to admit, I succumbed to my base sarcastic nature when it came down to one commenter on here. I just can't seem to be able to come to grips with anyone that claims that they have a divine purpose revealed to them which makes them above and beyond a "normal" human. So forgive my failing and responses to that one person, but I need to be grounded more in what is REAL not some fantasy world that someone believes. So, "Would you like a cookie? Have a cookie."
Maybe we can get something like that going! Have one that says "Don't Be A Parasite!" with a picture of a tick and underneath the tick put POLY TICK SHUN.
I suspect the "law" you're looking for is NATURAL LAW...
natural law
noun
A body of principles that are considered to be inherent in nature and have universal application in determining whether human conduct is right or wrong, often contrasted with positive law.
An ethical theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere.
a rule or body of rules of conduct inherent in human nature and essential to or binding upon human society.
As for Anarchy, it is indeed the lack of a government, but it is not a synonym for "chaos." THAT is what the Nasties want us to think. I looked through several definitions, all propaganda, until I came to this one, which is the actual definition I always knew of, since high school...
"Anarchy is social and political theory calling for the replacement of government rule with a system of self-government and unlimited individual liberty. Anarchy is also used negatively as a term describing violence, chaos, and social collapse. The two main schools of anarchist thought are individualist and social."
People naturally are given to thinking of the systems we have tried and used for lo these many, many centuries... But that doesn't mean there are NO alternatives we haven't tried! We need to make this current war into peace, by taking out these Psychotard Oligarchs from having any power (I vote for Lethal Injection for the Main Instigators and Most Heinous Deliverers). THEN we can sit down in local groups and figure it out, with the smartest and most fair-minded running things, and everyone can have a say. LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL
We can still be the United States of America, but that doesn't mean there can't be some differences among the States, etiher.
ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN and WE CAN DIRECT OUR OWN DESTINIES.
Maybe, maybe not. It might depend on who you're talking to...
Natural Law is the law that I (and many of "we Americans") would consider as the foundation of our "inalienable rights." Natural Law, or those we might describe as laws that are part of NATURE, or coming from our CREATOR, ie, DIVINE RIGHTS, or GOD's LAWS, etc.; then Common Law, to me, probably includes a lot of that, but isn't necessarily the same thing, because "Common Law" could be named so simply because it is common among various national govt's.
I think it's interesting, and I think it's not worth fighting about it, because we can easily parse it down into particulars and go from there. ^_^
The two main weapons of the Evil Ones:
FEAR and DIVIDE & CONQUER. Be on our toes, saith the dog.
Actually, our nation based it's laws on the "common law". That is where the unalienable rights stem from. I see the two as interchangeable. STATUTORY "LAW" is the is what the various leaders of countries adhere to and want us to be a slave under.
Oh, I thought they wanted us under EVIL LAW... theirs. lol
We're on the same page, as you know. I'm not worried about semantics, because I've read most of your posts, I think, about laws and govt., etc. We're good.
Agreeing to pay taxes to this government is a capital mistake. George Washington hated governments and then went and helped create one. The founding fathers were way more fearful of the potential abuses to be waged by what they created than by threats from without. They were 100% correct.
The only reason they tax us on the Federal level is to hide the monetary scam. They want you to "think" they need them. They don't. See: Thank You Federal Reserve... What Would We Have Ever Done Without You!!! https://courageouslion380.substack.com/p/thank-you-federal-reserve
“ The cops don’t need you and man they expect the same.” Bob Dylan. Falling for the promises of nation states is like falling for the offer they can’t refuse in the Godfather. We do not need them and they expect the same. Codependent reality.
We didn't AGREE. Income tax is illegal and was foisted on us without our consent. How many people want to pay taxes? Nobody I know. We've been trained to believe they are "necessary," but mostly that's utter bullshit. If every locality took care, themselves, of their own roads and other issues (which they kind of do now, but the govt. takes a BIG cut first, out of the taxes), we'd all be a lot richer. LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL. The early Americans didn't want centralized govt., but they were beaten down by the WEALTHY. Sounds familiar, eh? One of our main problems is our reluctance to have a wealth cap, and other measures that would even the playing field without putting anyone into poverty. After all, MOST of the wealth sucked up by these oligarchic families that have (mostly) always had far too much wealth for their own good has come from the EARTH's resources, which "belong" to NO ONE. So saith the dog.
Well, no. Since my taxes are removed from my paycheck BEFORE I get my paycheck, no. I don't agree to having my income taxed. I NEVER DID. It's been forced on me, and people who run companies don't want to go to JAIL, so they never agreed, either, they are manipulated. Isn't it grand? What a system, eh?
(Stands back and mutters very nasty things under her breath, in Doggish, about oligarchs and politicians.)
That article ties in with this Britanica post rather nicely. Yes, we have ANARCHY on the international level and for that matter even on the national level, but that kind of anarchy is in opposition to what I'm writing about. It really IS chaos! https://www.britannica.com/topic/anarchy
Just think if we had well regulated militias and citizens everywhere that were trained and ready to use their training on some nut case that pulls out an AR 15. Today I was practicing with a .357 revolver at 36 yards (108 feet) from my 3/4 size silhouette and after I was done I said to myself, "I sure wouldn't want to get in a shoot out with me!"
OK, but when was the last time that anywhere in the world or in history has the one true living God come down and had a pow wow with them? We would still have to TRUST the MEN and WOMEN who would claim to be the anointed ones to run the show. And where does that bring us? Back to Salem witch trials? Stoning people for working on the "Sabbath"? Who is damaged by THAT act? Let's face it...
You are basing your beliefs on a book that has many books within it that were in so many cases used to subjugate the population by MEN. I have a well worn, well noted, well read bible that I have retired. WHY? Because someone made me ask some questions that couldn't be answered with it. AND I find that MEN at churches, which I attended many of, where little tyrants in their own stead. Playing god with their flock and basically making a great living for almost no work. I could relate so many stories of my experiences but I won't bore you with them. Well, except this one...I QUESTIONED the rapture "belief" at a Baptist fellowship I attended and was cordially invited to lunch with my wife by the head deacon at which time I was asked not to return to the fellowship.
I can't even IMAGINE a world where MEN are administering the government of God. Take the 10 Commandments for instance. SIX of them have human victims that would be able to come into a "court" to plead their case. The top FOUR have NO VICTIM because the so called victim CANNOT come into a court to plead his case. CAN HE? So how would you work that one out? If I worked on the Sabbath can God claim to be a victim? If so, I'm in trouble! And yet I have a copy of them hanging in my hallway. Maybe to remind me of the bottom six. Even though it is very hard to have "honored a father and mother" that for all intents were child abusers that raised me. Where I was beaten for minor infractions that would have landed them in a cage in today's political climate. Where my head was smashed through the wall at the young age of 11 because my father was upset with something I said or did. Where I was knee dropped in the head by both my mother and father as they ganged up on me at a young age because I had "sassed" my mother.
I've been married for 45 + years. We've been together for 47+ years. It hasn't always been a bed of roses but I can honestly say this:
As we lie beneath the stars
We realize how small we are
If they could love like you and me
Imagine what the world could be...
I don't need someone to rule me. I can do a bad enough job all by myself.
After reading this again, I will say...Thank you for your entertaining statement. Reminds me of some of what I read about David Koresh. Now, I'm going to talk to the woman who is helping me get out of the Matrix since I'm "The One". Keanu Reeves was an imposter.
Why just "some"? Why not everyone? Is God being unfair? I have the gift of reason, logic and common sense that my creator gifted me with. Why is it that so many DON'T have or utilize those traits? Why is it that critical thinking is pretty much lost with the typical man/woman/whatever? Why do so many church fellowships want you to leave your reason, logic and common sense at the threshold of the building where they hold their brain washing sessions within that they tell you you have to believe on faith? Why do they twist and distort the scriptures to fit their own agenda? They make Romans 13 out to be a command to be a door mat to tyrants! Help me out John...
A herd of caribou, a school of fish, a pack of wolves, a flock of starlings, they all manage themselves well, since forever, without government or even thumbs for that matter. Much to learn from them.
Let's see. Roads already suck, we're already terrorized by a nation wide street gang, and are ruled over by murderous warlords. Can't be any worse that's for sure.
In an anarchy we could take care of the murderous warlords if need be. The way it is now, you're a "bad guy" if you were to identify such people and eliminate them.
Like I told the other guy, just making a joke. Obviously a bad one.
Actually your "joke" is quite accurate. Which is why you are having the responses you are. I sure saw it as accurate! Roads SUCK. The nation wide street gang is the Highway Patrol of every state, and the murderous warlords are in every county enforcing the edicts of their masters in the state houses and national legislatures. So if your intention really was a joke, you need to look closer at what you are saying because it is a TRUE joke.
What's the old saying? Something about all jokes have little truth mixed in. Yea it was a half joke half serious.
I'd say it was 95% serious and 5% joke. LOL!
Yea, that sounds reasonable enough
That set of circumstances is ENTIRELY constructed by the Rat Bastard Servants of the Psychotard Oligarchs that are committing the fraud we refer to as "Covid" and the genocide "solution" to that fraud. It COULD be a LOT worse, but we are not going to let that happen, not for long, anyway, because that will be when the scales fall from so many eyes that our road conditions will be clear.
Just making a joke at the expense of the three top moronic arguments against a stateless society. I'm more than aware of the reality of our situation
Well, okay. ;)
Can't disagree with you though. Obviously could be much worse no matter the societal setup. Just like to try to keep my sanity with what are sometimes dumb and misplaced jokes. If ya can't laugh at this shit, it'll drive ya mad
True dat, Cousin! And if there's one thing that is healing, it's laughter. I do my best to make fun of the Psychotards every chance I get! ^_^
Cheers.
There's a market for security and conflict resolution. Let the market satisfy it.
What, with mercenaries?
If that's what you mean, I have serious reservations.
Here's just one possibility. Insurance companies would have an incentive to prevent property crimes, assaults and murders in order to prevent paying for insured losses. If there's a need for something, the free market will find a way to supply it.
Insurance companies... hmmm. Biggest scammers EVER, lol.
I think LOCAL police are fine. FROM the area they work.
The thing about locality is that when people feel things are not right, they can address the ones responsible FACE TO FACE. This goes a long way to creating a means of addressing things in a community, as opposed to some overlord bunch far far away who don't know you, don't care about you, and are usually pretty keen on overstepping their authority for some kind of reward, usually monetary. It's complicated, and so I think localization would be a far better thing, at least until we figure out a better way.
If the local police are paid for from a voluntary agreement, fine. If they are paid from theft taken from people by force, I'm against that. "Mercenaries" are what most police are as it stands. Rex has a point that was written about by Robert Murphy in Chaos Theory. Excellent read and you can get it for free here: https://mises.org/library/chaos-theory-two-essays-market-anarchy-0
I'm ALWAYS against taking things from people by force, with one exception: I think the wealth that is currently hoarded by the Evil Psychotard Oligarchy should be taken by force FORTHWITH and distributed among all the peeps of the world... And since those EPO have 90% of the wealth of the world, we'd all be able to do Great Things and still have some savings.
^_^
And thanks for that link, I'll go check it out. Cheers, Lion! xo
The Evil Psychotard Oligarcy have wealth that has been stolen from the people by fraud and deceit, which in the case of the international Banksters, it should be taken from them and distributed as you suggest. However, if they actually earned it like some have, and they are using it for the benefit of mankind, like I see that Elon is doing to a good degree, maybe they should be left alone to their pursuits. The only thing I have against Musk is his use of "money" that was loaned by the psychopaths administering government. He did, however, pay it all back in a timely manner. I have no issue how much wealth someone has, as long as it was made by an honest endeavor. People like Bill Gates, Mark Suckerberg, Klaus Snob, Georgie Soros, Rockefellers, Carnegies, Warburgs, Chairman Xiden...not so much!
I'm with you, man! Also, "don't be a parasite" made me laugh out loud! It's so true. The parasites are the ones that call us the troublemakers. They only know how to invert and pervert every thing.
This is right on. Every law includes the expense of enforcing that law. Without the power to enforce, statute laws are complete shit. Our legislators have been using the wrong end of the pencil for about 150 years (legislating far beyond their power to enforce). As the money system collapses, the forces in the economy that make cops flip their lights on and race to the donut shop are going to disappear. Without donuts, will cops even get out of bed anymore? Why would they even put the uniform on for no donut?
This made me laugh so hard I almost fell of my chair.
OK, everyone...I have to admit, I succumbed to my base sarcastic nature when it came down to one commenter on here. I just can't seem to be able to come to grips with anyone that claims that they have a divine purpose revealed to them which makes them above and beyond a "normal" human. So forgive my failing and responses to that one person, but I need to be grounded more in what is REAL not some fantasy world that someone believes. So, "Would you like a cookie? Have a cookie."
Where can I order my DON’T BE A PARASITE stickers, t-shirts, mugs, flags, hats, etc.? ;)
Maybe we can get something like that going! Have one that says "Don't Be A Parasite!" with a picture of a tick and underneath the tick put POLY TICK SHUN.
I suspect the "law" you're looking for is NATURAL LAW...
natural law
noun
A body of principles that are considered to be inherent in nature and have universal application in determining whether human conduct is right or wrong, often contrasted with positive law.
An ethical theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere.
a rule or body of rules of conduct inherent in human nature and essential to or binding upon human society.
As for Anarchy, it is indeed the lack of a government, but it is not a synonym for "chaos." THAT is what the Nasties want us to think. I looked through several definitions, all propaganda, until I came to this one, which is the actual definition I always knew of, since high school...
"Anarchy is social and political theory calling for the replacement of government rule with a system of self-government and unlimited individual liberty. Anarchy is also used negatively as a term describing violence, chaos, and social collapse. The two main schools of anarchist thought are individualist and social."
People naturally are given to thinking of the systems we have tried and used for lo these many, many centuries... But that doesn't mean there are NO alternatives we haven't tried! We need to make this current war into peace, by taking out these Psychotard Oligarchs from having any power (I vote for Lethal Injection for the Main Instigators and Most Heinous Deliverers). THEN we can sit down in local groups and figure it out, with the smartest and most fair-minded running things, and everyone can have a say. LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL
We can still be the United States of America, but that doesn't mean there can't be some differences among the States, etiher.
ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN and WE CAN DIRECT OUR OWN DESTINIES.
Natural Law, baby. Natural Law.
Natural Law is the current vernacular for Common Law.
Maybe, maybe not. It might depend on who you're talking to...
Natural Law is the law that I (and many of "we Americans") would consider as the foundation of our "inalienable rights." Natural Law, or those we might describe as laws that are part of NATURE, or coming from our CREATOR, ie, DIVINE RIGHTS, or GOD's LAWS, etc.; then Common Law, to me, probably includes a lot of that, but isn't necessarily the same thing, because "Common Law" could be named so simply because it is common among various national govt's.
I think it's interesting, and I think it's not worth fighting about it, because we can easily parse it down into particulars and go from there. ^_^
The two main weapons of the Evil Ones:
FEAR and DIVIDE & CONQUER. Be on our toes, saith the dog.
Actually, our nation based it's laws on the "common law". That is where the unalienable rights stem from. I see the two as interchangeable. STATUTORY "LAW" is the is what the various leaders of countries adhere to and want us to be a slave under.
Oh, I thought they wanted us under EVIL LAW... theirs. lol
We're on the same page, as you know. I'm not worried about semantics, because I've read most of your posts, I think, about laws and govt., etc. We're good.
Agreeing to pay taxes to this government is a capital mistake. George Washington hated governments and then went and helped create one. The founding fathers were way more fearful of the potential abuses to be waged by what they created than by threats from without. They were 100% correct.
The only reason they tax us on the Federal level is to hide the monetary scam. They want you to "think" they need them. They don't. See: Thank You Federal Reserve... What Would We Have Ever Done Without You!!! https://courageouslion380.substack.com/p/thank-you-federal-reserve
“ The cops don’t need you and man they expect the same.” Bob Dylan. Falling for the promises of nation states is like falling for the offer they can’t refuse in the Godfather. We do not need them and they expect the same. Codependent reality.
We didn't AGREE. Income tax is illegal and was foisted on us without our consent. How many people want to pay taxes? Nobody I know. We've been trained to believe they are "necessary," but mostly that's utter bullshit. If every locality took care, themselves, of their own roads and other issues (which they kind of do now, but the govt. takes a BIG cut first, out of the taxes), we'd all be a lot richer. LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL. The early Americans didn't want centralized govt., but they were beaten down by the WEALTHY. Sounds familiar, eh? One of our main problems is our reluctance to have a wealth cap, and other measures that would even the playing field without putting anyone into poverty. After all, MOST of the wealth sucked up by these oligarchic families that have (mostly) always had far too much wealth for their own good has come from the EARTH's resources, which "belong" to NO ONE. So saith the dog.
(Happy Earth Day!)
I presume we AGREE by paying those taxes. No?
Well, no. Since my taxes are removed from my paycheck BEFORE I get my paycheck, no. I don't agree to having my income taxed. I NEVER DID. It's been forced on me, and people who run companies don't want to go to JAIL, so they never agreed, either, they are manipulated. Isn't it grand? What a system, eh?
(Stands back and mutters very nasty things under her breath, in Doggish, about oligarchs and politicians.)
And WE ALL are aware that the richer you are, the less, if ANY, taxes you pay. FIE.
Read this:
"A genocidal "nationalist anarchist" is pulling double-digits in Paraguay"
https://populism.substack.com/p/a-genocidal-nationalist-anarchist
That article ties in with this Britanica post rather nicely. Yes, we have ANARCHY on the international level and for that matter even on the national level, but that kind of anarchy is in opposition to what I'm writing about. It really IS chaos! https://www.britannica.com/topic/anarchy
We should be Our own Police and Law Abiding Citizens. The world would be a much better place.
Just think if we had well regulated militias and citizens everywhere that were trained and ready to use their training on some nut case that pulls out an AR 15. Today I was practicing with a .357 revolver at 36 yards (108 feet) from my 3/4 size silhouette and after I was done I said to myself, "I sure wouldn't want to get in a shoot out with me!"
Our own first responder as Colion Noir puts it. Law abiding = DO NO HARM!
OK, but when was the last time that anywhere in the world or in history has the one true living God come down and had a pow wow with them? We would still have to TRUST the MEN and WOMEN who would claim to be the anointed ones to run the show. And where does that bring us? Back to Salem witch trials? Stoning people for working on the "Sabbath"? Who is damaged by THAT act? Let's face it...
You are basing your beliefs on a book that has many books within it that were in so many cases used to subjugate the population by MEN. I have a well worn, well noted, well read bible that I have retired. WHY? Because someone made me ask some questions that couldn't be answered with it. AND I find that MEN at churches, which I attended many of, where little tyrants in their own stead. Playing god with their flock and basically making a great living for almost no work. I could relate so many stories of my experiences but I won't bore you with them. Well, except this one...I QUESTIONED the rapture "belief" at a Baptist fellowship I attended and was cordially invited to lunch with my wife by the head deacon at which time I was asked not to return to the fellowship.
I can't even IMAGINE a world where MEN are administering the government of God. Take the 10 Commandments for instance. SIX of them have human victims that would be able to come into a "court" to plead their case. The top FOUR have NO VICTIM because the so called victim CANNOT come into a court to plead his case. CAN HE? So how would you work that one out? If I worked on the Sabbath can God claim to be a victim? If so, I'm in trouble! And yet I have a copy of them hanging in my hallway. Maybe to remind me of the bottom six. Even though it is very hard to have "honored a father and mother" that for all intents were child abusers that raised me. Where I was beaten for minor infractions that would have landed them in a cage in today's political climate. Where my head was smashed through the wall at the young age of 11 because my father was upset with something I said or did. Where I was knee dropped in the head by both my mother and father as they ganged up on me at a young age because I had "sassed" my mother.
I've been married for 45 + years. We've been together for 47+ years. It hasn't always been a bed of roses but I can honestly say this:
As we lie beneath the stars
We realize how small we are
If they could love like you and me
Imagine what the world could be...
I don't need someone to rule me. I can do a bad enough job all by myself.
After reading this again, I will say...Thank you for your entertaining statement. Reminds me of some of what I read about David Koresh. Now, I'm going to talk to the woman who is helping me get out of the Matrix since I'm "The One". Keanu Reeves was an imposter.
Very interesting. You were THREE? Is that a typo? I'm assuming no, that it is what you wrote because you state you couldn't read.
Why just "some"? Why not everyone? Is God being unfair? I have the gift of reason, logic and common sense that my creator gifted me with. Why is it that so many DON'T have or utilize those traits? Why is it that critical thinking is pretty much lost with the typical man/woman/whatever? Why do so many church fellowships want you to leave your reason, logic and common sense at the threshold of the building where they hold their brain washing sessions within that they tell you you have to believe on faith? Why do they twist and distort the scriptures to fit their own agenda? They make Romans 13 out to be a command to be a door mat to tyrants! Help me out John...