We, who are not programed must fight for freedom as hard as we can. I lived under the communist as a child, but as long as you were not opposing them we kids were free, more free than many American kids being pump up with 72 vaccines to be ill for life. we could carry knife to scholl aven buy a 1000f per second air rifle at the age of 9. The democrat woke is far worse than the Czech communists. America they, the democrats are the disease, they will not go away, they even worse than the fascists who did not do experimental injections on their own people. America is run by the pharma medical industry, they the largest industry in history of mankind.... money should not rule but it do.
We are living in far more dangerous times than people either don't understand or choose to ignore. We are on life support. It's time for everyone who can stand to find a way to fight the government, which was taken over during the last sixty years when we were not paying attention.
This is a perfect example of today's leaders. An Ohio state representative, Jerry Cirino, when approached by voters to rid the state of the increasingly rapid growth of property taxes which is hurting the elderly as they try to keep up, responded: "Tell them to sell their houses and move into an apartment, and that will help with the housing shortage." It falls on us to rid ourselves of these local fools and those like Susan Collins and Linda Murkowslis from government.
Jerry must have a huge head with an inflated ego. What low life to say that is how the RENT issue should be dealt with. NO, THERE SHOULD BE NO TAXES ON PEOPLES HOMES! It is THE FIRST PLANK OF THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO! One of the reasons they had to disband the state militias because people would have organized against this insanity.
The ATF tried doing that. It didn’t work, but they eventually were able to get one to cause the weapon to malfunction and fire three rounds and that was what they used to claim it was a conversion device. Even if it WAS…SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is supposed to be the “law” of the land.
In Russia Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s “ gulag archipelago “is mandatory reading . The west would do well read his work and understand the communist thinking. We are rapidly heading down that path
As a pastor and fellow believer committed to honoring God’s Word, I offer these thoughts with humility and care. It’s vital for all of us to approach spiritual discourse with sober-minded discernment—always measuring our ideas, speech, and reasoning against Scripture.
In that spirit, I want to gently challenge a few statements made by “Courageous Lion” and invite reflection through a biblical lens. Here is the claim in question:
“Let’s start with some simple concepts. If you believe in God, who was here first? God or man… Well DUH, right? So it works like this…
GOD is over
MAN is over
GOVERNMENT because MAN created ‘OUR’ Government.”
At first glance, this seems reasonable. But upon closer examination, this view does not align with the testimony of Scripture. While man may participate in establishing human institutions, Scripture clearly teaches that it is God who ordains government, not man.
Consider these passages:
Romans 13:1–2 (ESV):
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
1 Peter 2:13–14:
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.”
These verses do not present a hierarchy with “man over government,” but rather a call to submit to governing authorities as part of our obedience to God. The Old Testament confirms God's active role in establishing rulers:
Daniel 2:20–21:
“Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings…”
In other words, government is not a human invention. It is part of God’s providential design. While governments are made up of sinful people and can act unjustly, their authority is derived—not from man—but from God. Until Christ returns to establish perfect justice, all human rule will remain imperfect. But even in that imperfection, God’s sovereignty remains.
Jesus Himself acknowledged earthly authority—even under a corrupt regime.
Consider His words to Pilate in John 19:11 (ESV):
“You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
It’s worth noting: the Roman government of Jesus’s day was corrupt, oppressive, and unjust. Yet Jesus didn’t challenge its legitimacy. Why? Because its authority had been permitted by God.
Even when governance is flawed—as it inevitably is in a fallen world—it still functions under God's sovereignty. Our current systems may exhibit corruption on a broader scale, but the principle remains: God is not absent in the presence of broken institutions.
If we step back from a hyper-focus on current dysfunction and take the wider biblical view, we begin to see a truth echoed throughout Scripture: authority, even when misused, is still part of God’s presently ordained order. This does not mean we excuse injustice—but it does mean we recognize where authority ultimately comes from.
Imagine the chaos if every person became a law unto themselves—if each individual chose whether or not to obey based solely on personal judgment. That’s not freedom; it’s anarchy. And it's certainly not the order Scripture calls for.
Returning to another point made in the article:
“What is ‘OUR’ Government? It’s the US Constitution. Those who have a job, such as president or whatever, have that job because the US Constitution created that position for them.”
While I understand the sentiment here, this is an oversimplification. Yes, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land (Article VI), and yes, it defines the roles and powers of our governing officials. But to say “the Constitution is our government” is a bit like saying blueprints are the building. The Constitution establishes the structure, but the actual “government” consists of the people who fill those roles and exercise authority.
Legal authority in the U.S. is indeed derived from the Constitution. However, this authority—like all authority—exists within the broader framework of God’s providence.
This brings us to a key insight: no structure, no system, no government is ever built exactly to plan. I’ve never seen a building constructed 100% to spec. There’s always a detail that gets missed, a misread blueprint, or a substitute part because the original supplier was unavailable—life in this fallen world is full of such workarounds and flaws.
This is the reality we live in: imperfect people carrying out imperfect systems in imperfect ways.
Many of the arguments here seem to rest on a foundational misunderstanding—that man is over government. But biblically speaking, that’s simply not true. God ordained government to bear authority over the population. Our role is specific and defined, not sovereign.
While the Constitution outlines the structure of American governance, and elections offer us a means of representation, individual citizens do not personally wield governmental authority.
Now, is the Constitution perfect?
As much as I admire its brilliance and the vision behind it, it remains a human document. It’s the finest I’ve seen, but it’s not infallible. It outlines checks, balances, and freedoms, but it's still executed by fallible human beings. And because of that, the relationship between the governed and those who govern will always be complex and sometimes deeply flawed.
That said, I believe I understand the heart of your message. And truthfully, I agree with some of your concerns. History offers us plenty of examples where governments have acted corruptly or unjustly—a painful reminder of institutional failure.
But how should believers respond when government oversteps its bounds? Scripture offers guidance here as well.
Consider Acts 5:29 (ESV):
“But Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than men.’”
It’s essential to understand this in context. The Apostles were being commanded not to preach the gospel. They had already been jailed once, but God miraculously released them—and they returned to preaching boldly. When summoned again before the council, they refused to comply, even after being beaten, and rejoiced that they had been counted worthy to suffer for the name of Christ.
It’s also worth noting: God intervened supernaturally. He didn’t just give them permission—He enabled their disobedience in a direct and powerful way. That kind of affirmation isn’t something to take lightly.
Throughout Scripture, we see that when people suffer under oppressive governments or fall into disobedience, God raises up deliverers—as in Judges 2:16–18. His response is not chaos or rebellion, but leadership aligned with His purposes.
Later in your essay, you write:
“Understanding this is crucial because in ignorance we will enslave each other if we do not realize WE are Caesar. The GOVERNMENT is the US Constitution and those UNDER that are the servants. It’s been turned on its head!”
This framing troubles me—not because I don’t see the frustrations beneath it, but because it risks repeating the very lie Scripture warns us about from the beginning: that we are our own authority.
From Genesis onward, the Enemy's message has been this: “You will be like God.” But the consistent call of Scripture is to submit to God’s authority—not assert our own. While it may sound empowering to declare ourselves “Caesar,” this directly contradicts the biblical command to humble ourselves under God’s rule.
Now, I recognize what you might be trying to say here. Perhaps your deeper point is: “Our government is not the highest authority, and we must not obey when it acts in contradiction to God’s Word.” That’s a principle I can agree with completely. God is, and has always been, the final authority. When any institution—governmental, religious, or otherwise—opposes God’s will, our obedience must remain with God.
You continue:
“Some pastors and deacons are CONvinced that we have a government that has somehow become our Caesar. That simply is not the case.”
Let’s return to Romans 13:1–2 and 1 Peter 2:13–14, which affirm that all governing authorities are instituted by God. And in Matthew 22:21, Jesus famously answered the Pharisees’ trap:
“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
This isn’t a call to conflate tax-paying with worship. It’s a call to discern where our true allegiance lies. We are not commanded to worship government—we are called to worship God in spirit and in truth. And that requires obedience to Him above all else.
Man is never called to be his own authority. That has been the root of sin since Eden. True freedom begins when we recognize our place before a holy God—not as rulers of ourselves, but as servants of the One who rules justly. And when we take that posture—humble, obedient, surrendered—we begin to live out what Jesus commanded: to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not by force, not by ideology, not even by laws we believe are good—but by the transforming power of God at work in us.
Very nice rebuttal Pastor. But if We The People are the Final arbitrators of the law that has been passed by the legislature and is enforced by the executive and is judged by the judicial, then we are the ones that control the law. You seem to have missed the main point. Our founding fathers wanted to have a system where WE THE PEOPLE were in control, not some men in those three branches. Without WE THE PEOPLE the Constitution wouldn’t exist. Without the Constitution the three branches wouldn’t exist.
I am not taking Father out of the equation, I’m simply showing the pecking order of how things in the real world are SUPPOSED to work.
As for your statement about anarchy, what are you? A major portion of your life you are SELF RULED. You don’t need somebody to tell you not to rob, rape and steal. The only time you deal with any form of government is when it is stealing from you in the myriad of ways it does so.
Maybe the following post that I made after that one would better enlighten you. To me it’s simple. To most when they see my obvious well backed point of view it is simple to them. Except for a few cases where as one assistant pastor said he couldn't agree or go along with the "idea" of the jury deciding the law. Well that’s sort of sad because THAT is the REASON the founding fathers put the jury system into existence. So we could PROTECT EACH OTHER from tyrannical laws that were passed.
In the final analysis, yes Yahweh, my Father and His Son, my savior are who are in control. On the earthly realm, WE THE PEOPLE has been set asside for Karl Marx Communism. https://www.courageouslion.us/p/communism-american-style
Your view of Romans 13 is NOT the view the Founding Fathers took of it. And I agree with their view vs the one you adhere to.
Thanks again for the long, lengthy effort you have made to rebut my effort at revealing the LIE that is controlling our country. I think my explanation lays out the reality where yours distorts it due to you view of what you believe the word is saying. WE THE PEOPLE have no Caesar. The three branches wouldn’t exist without WE THE PEOPLE. And if you get a chance, please read the Declaration of Independence closely…where it states the following…GOVERNMENTS ARE INSTITUTED AMONG MEN BY THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED. DERIVING THEIR JUST POWERS. I don’t consent to laws that make criminals out of victimless acts. Randy Weaver had his son murdered and his wife murdered over his disobedience of a law that shouldn’t’ exist along side the 2nd amendment itself. You shouldn’t either.Bryan Malinowski was murdered because he didn’t pay a $200 license fee. I don’t consent to lies and tyranny. It just isn’t he Christian thing to be doing.
As individuals, ‘we’ aren’t final arbiters of the law.
As individuals, ‘our’ appeal to the authorities for real or perceived injustice(s) has a proper channel and venue. This is the right and just approach to governance – moderated, careful and thoughtful. Consensus. (read: more than one individual.)
Our founding fathers weren’t substitutes for God (and neither they nor their work should be revered as such either) but His servants. The people consent to governance in obedience to God’s word – not that we are an authority to answer to in and of ourselves.
I think that’s where you’re derailing.
When you assert, “A major portion of your life you are SELF RULED” you are only illustrating what the carnal, fallen flesh desires. Self-rule, self-governance, complete and total unrestricted autonomy to do whatever, say whatever, whenever and to whomever I want.
This is the desire and prison of the flesh that you seem to be appealing to for support.
Jesus on the other hand, demonstrates the opposite. E.g. John 5:30 (ESV) “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
We do need to be obedient to God, and the way He has chosen to implement His laws are via the institution of earthly government. Therefore, barring same said government contradicting God’s moral law, we are to be obedient to it.
“You don’t need somebody to tell you not to rob, rape and steal. The only time you deal with any form of government is when it is stealing from you in the myriad of ways it does so.”
This is the same argument Israelites made as they demanded an earthly king – we don’t need God telling us what’s right and wrong, we demand to be like all other nations. Can’t you see that you are arguing from a position of self-authority? As if we are the final arbiters of moral right and wrong? We aren’t, and that’s a massive problem if that’s where you’re at.
God ordained government to exercise His authority over US, not the other way around. If that offends you, it offends the flesh – the natural man who desperately seeks to seize control for himself. The Constitution isn’t the bible, but some appear to value it above the bible which is distinctly problematic.
Also note, the framework of our Constitutional Republic assumes a God-fearing and faithfully Christian people, not a Godless, flesh-worshipping pagan one where everyone who has a bone to pick with God will find ways to subvert what are otherwise well-crafted blueprints for a kind of allied partnership governance in tune with God’s word.
“Your view of Romans 13 is NOT the view the Founding Fathers took of it. And I agree with their view vs the one you adhere to.”
Strange, what I read is that the founders largely agreed that government is instituted by God, but that did not equate to divine endorsement of kings or individual rulers etc.
Further, not all of the founding fathers agreed with each other about the fuller context of Romans 13:1-7. Some of them were Christians, some weren’t, and those men were significantly influenced by thinkers of their time such as John Locke and Samuel Rutherford.
e.g. "It is the duty of all men in society... to submit to the government of God, and not of man." — John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1813.
“The king is not the law, but the servant of the law.” — Samuel Rutherford, Lex, Rex.
I think it’s reasonable to argue that the founders could agree that obedience to government necessarily implies obedience to a just and moral governance by same. This is what I agree with as it relates to Romans 13:1-7.
Now, please articulate how my view of Romans 13 contradicts (a) the balance of scripture and (b) how it is in opposition to what you perceive is the ‘side’ of the founding fathers.
“Thanks again for the long, lengthy effort you have made to rebut my effort at revealing the LIE that is controlling our country. I think my explanation lays out the reality where yours distorts it due to you [sic] view of what you believe the word is saying.”
Be careful here. Pointing fingers accusing me of distorting things without clear scriptural support to illustrate what you claim are distortions does not reveal the fruit of the spirit. Instead, it shows the opposite. I am simply here to help you see and understand God’s perspective, not man’s perspective.
I have only provided you with clear, scripturally based support concerning God’s take on government and the use of His authority to moderate the affairs of mankind. If you believe otherwise, please cite, using in-context scriptural references to help me see your counterpoint.
Otherwise, this just comes off as resisting any and all correction and reproof.
We, who are not programed must fight for freedom as hard as we can. I lived under the communist as a child, but as long as you were not opposing them we kids were free, more free than many American kids being pump up with 72 vaccines to be ill for life. we could carry knife to scholl aven buy a 1000f per second air rifle at the age of 9. The democrat woke is far worse than the Czech communists. America they, the democrats are the disease, they will not go away, they even worse than the fascists who did not do experimental injections on their own people. America is run by the pharma medical industry, they the largest industry in history of mankind.... money should not rule but it do.
Paul, you will find this quite interesting, I’m sure. https://www.courageouslion.us/p/fruit-from-a-poisonous-tree
We are living in far more dangerous times than people either don't understand or choose to ignore. We are on life support. It's time for everyone who can stand to find a way to fight the government, which was taken over during the last sixty years when we were not paying attention.
This is a perfect example of today's leaders. An Ohio state representative, Jerry Cirino, when approached by voters to rid the state of the increasingly rapid growth of property taxes which is hurting the elderly as they try to keep up, responded: "Tell them to sell their houses and move into an apartment, and that will help with the housing shortage." It falls on us to rid ourselves of these local fools and those like Susan Collins and Linda Murkowslis from government.
Trump can't do it by himself.
Jerry must have a huge head with an inflated ego. What low life to say that is how the RENT issue should be dealt with. NO, THERE SHOULD BE NO TAXES ON PEOPLES HOMES! It is THE FIRST PLANK OF THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO! One of the reasons they had to disband the state militias because people would have organized against this insanity.
I think Marie Antoinette was alleged to have said something like that, didn't end well for her.
So, the outlines on that card, are they to be punched out of the card and used to modify a gun to be full auto?
Still doesn't make them "machine guns."
The ATF tried doing that. It didn’t work, but they eventually were able to get one to cause the weapon to malfunction and fire three rounds and that was what they used to claim it was a conversion device. Even if it WAS…SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is supposed to be the “law” of the land.
So, f with something enough that you break it and it malfunctions, then it's something it never was. 🙄😠
Which is EXACTLY what it has become. This is the end result as of today Bandit…https://www.courageouslion.us/p/communism-american-style
Every one must read Frederick Bastiat “ the law” and know it well enough to quote.
It should be a must reading in school everywhere! An updated (by me) version is available here: https://www.courageouslion.us/p/the-law-2024
In Russia Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s “ gulag archipelago “is mandatory reading . The west would do well read his work and understand the communist thinking. We are rapidly heading down that path
Dear Courageous Lion:
As a pastor and fellow believer committed to honoring God’s Word, I offer these thoughts with humility and care. It’s vital for all of us to approach spiritual discourse with sober-minded discernment—always measuring our ideas, speech, and reasoning against Scripture.
In that spirit, I want to gently challenge a few statements made by “Courageous Lion” and invite reflection through a biblical lens. Here is the claim in question:
“Let’s start with some simple concepts. If you believe in God, who was here first? God or man… Well DUH, right? So it works like this…
GOD is over
MAN is over
GOVERNMENT because MAN created ‘OUR’ Government.”
At first glance, this seems reasonable. But upon closer examination, this view does not align with the testimony of Scripture. While man may participate in establishing human institutions, Scripture clearly teaches that it is God who ordains government, not man.
Consider these passages:
Romans 13:1–2 (ESV):
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
1 Peter 2:13–14:
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.”
These verses do not present a hierarchy with “man over government,” but rather a call to submit to governing authorities as part of our obedience to God. The Old Testament confirms God's active role in establishing rulers:
Daniel 2:20–21:
“Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings…”
In other words, government is not a human invention. It is part of God’s providential design. While governments are made up of sinful people and can act unjustly, their authority is derived—not from man—but from God. Until Christ returns to establish perfect justice, all human rule will remain imperfect. But even in that imperfection, God’s sovereignty remains.
Jesus Himself acknowledged earthly authority—even under a corrupt regime.
Consider His words to Pilate in John 19:11 (ESV):
“You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
It’s worth noting: the Roman government of Jesus’s day was corrupt, oppressive, and unjust. Yet Jesus didn’t challenge its legitimacy. Why? Because its authority had been permitted by God.
Even when governance is flawed—as it inevitably is in a fallen world—it still functions under God's sovereignty. Our current systems may exhibit corruption on a broader scale, but the principle remains: God is not absent in the presence of broken institutions.
If we step back from a hyper-focus on current dysfunction and take the wider biblical view, we begin to see a truth echoed throughout Scripture: authority, even when misused, is still part of God’s presently ordained order. This does not mean we excuse injustice—but it does mean we recognize where authority ultimately comes from.
Imagine the chaos if every person became a law unto themselves—if each individual chose whether or not to obey based solely on personal judgment. That’s not freedom; it’s anarchy. And it's certainly not the order Scripture calls for.
Returning to another point made in the article:
“What is ‘OUR’ Government? It’s the US Constitution. Those who have a job, such as president or whatever, have that job because the US Constitution created that position for them.”
While I understand the sentiment here, this is an oversimplification. Yes, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land (Article VI), and yes, it defines the roles and powers of our governing officials. But to say “the Constitution is our government” is a bit like saying blueprints are the building. The Constitution establishes the structure, but the actual “government” consists of the people who fill those roles and exercise authority.
Legal authority in the U.S. is indeed derived from the Constitution. However, this authority—like all authority—exists within the broader framework of God’s providence.
This brings us to a key insight: no structure, no system, no government is ever built exactly to plan. I’ve never seen a building constructed 100% to spec. There’s always a detail that gets missed, a misread blueprint, or a substitute part because the original supplier was unavailable—life in this fallen world is full of such workarounds and flaws.
This is the reality we live in: imperfect people carrying out imperfect systems in imperfect ways.
Many of the arguments here seem to rest on a foundational misunderstanding—that man is over government. But biblically speaking, that’s simply not true. God ordained government to bear authority over the population. Our role is specific and defined, not sovereign.
While the Constitution outlines the structure of American governance, and elections offer us a means of representation, individual citizens do not personally wield governmental authority.
Now, is the Constitution perfect?
As much as I admire its brilliance and the vision behind it, it remains a human document. It’s the finest I’ve seen, but it’s not infallible. It outlines checks, balances, and freedoms, but it's still executed by fallible human beings. And because of that, the relationship between the governed and those who govern will always be complex and sometimes deeply flawed.
That said, I believe I understand the heart of your message. And truthfully, I agree with some of your concerns. History offers us plenty of examples where governments have acted corruptly or unjustly—a painful reminder of institutional failure.
But how should believers respond when government oversteps its bounds? Scripture offers guidance here as well.
Consider Acts 5:29 (ESV):
“But Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than men.’”
It’s essential to understand this in context. The Apostles were being commanded not to preach the gospel. They had already been jailed once, but God miraculously released them—and they returned to preaching boldly. When summoned again before the council, they refused to comply, even after being beaten, and rejoiced that they had been counted worthy to suffer for the name of Christ.
It’s also worth noting: God intervened supernaturally. He didn’t just give them permission—He enabled their disobedience in a direct and powerful way. That kind of affirmation isn’t something to take lightly.
Throughout Scripture, we see that when people suffer under oppressive governments or fall into disobedience, God raises up deliverers—as in Judges 2:16–18. His response is not chaos or rebellion, but leadership aligned with His purposes.
Later in your essay, you write:
“Understanding this is crucial because in ignorance we will enslave each other if we do not realize WE are Caesar. The GOVERNMENT is the US Constitution and those UNDER that are the servants. It’s been turned on its head!”
This framing troubles me—not because I don’t see the frustrations beneath it, but because it risks repeating the very lie Scripture warns us about from the beginning: that we are our own authority.
From Genesis onward, the Enemy's message has been this: “You will be like God.” But the consistent call of Scripture is to submit to God’s authority—not assert our own. While it may sound empowering to declare ourselves “Caesar,” this directly contradicts the biblical command to humble ourselves under God’s rule.
Now, I recognize what you might be trying to say here. Perhaps your deeper point is: “Our government is not the highest authority, and we must not obey when it acts in contradiction to God’s Word.” That’s a principle I can agree with completely. God is, and has always been, the final authority. When any institution—governmental, religious, or otherwise—opposes God’s will, our obedience must remain with God.
You continue:
“Some pastors and deacons are CONvinced that we have a government that has somehow become our Caesar. That simply is not the case.”
Let’s return to Romans 13:1–2 and 1 Peter 2:13–14, which affirm that all governing authorities are instituted by God. And in Matthew 22:21, Jesus famously answered the Pharisees’ trap:
“Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
This isn’t a call to conflate tax-paying with worship. It’s a call to discern where our true allegiance lies. We are not commanded to worship government—we are called to worship God in spirit and in truth. And that requires obedience to Him above all else.
Man is never called to be his own authority. That has been the root of sin since Eden. True freedom begins when we recognize our place before a holy God—not as rulers of ourselves, but as servants of the One who rules justly. And when we take that posture—humble, obedient, surrendered—we begin to live out what Jesus commanded: to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not by force, not by ideology, not even by laws we believe are good—but by the transforming power of God at work in us.
God bless,
-Pastor Mike
Very nice rebuttal Pastor. But if We The People are the Final arbitrators of the law that has been passed by the legislature and is enforced by the executive and is judged by the judicial, then we are the ones that control the law. You seem to have missed the main point. Our founding fathers wanted to have a system where WE THE PEOPLE were in control, not some men in those three branches. Without WE THE PEOPLE the Constitution wouldn’t exist. Without the Constitution the three branches wouldn’t exist.
I am not taking Father out of the equation, I’m simply showing the pecking order of how things in the real world are SUPPOSED to work.
As for your statement about anarchy, what are you? A major portion of your life you are SELF RULED. You don’t need somebody to tell you not to rob, rape and steal. The only time you deal with any form of government is when it is stealing from you in the myriad of ways it does so.
Maybe the following post that I made after that one would better enlighten you. To me it’s simple. To most when they see my obvious well backed point of view it is simple to them. Except for a few cases where as one assistant pastor said he couldn't agree or go along with the "idea" of the jury deciding the law. Well that’s sort of sad because THAT is the REASON the founding fathers put the jury system into existence. So we could PROTECT EACH OTHER from tyrannical laws that were passed.
Here is the follow up article. https://www.courageouslion.us/p/while-we-the-people-sleep
In the final analysis, yes Yahweh, my Father and His Son, my savior are who are in control. On the earthly realm, WE THE PEOPLE has been set asside for Karl Marx Communism. https://www.courageouslion.us/p/communism-american-style
Your view of Romans 13 is NOT the view the Founding Fathers took of it. And I agree with their view vs the one you adhere to.
Thanks again for the long, lengthy effort you have made to rebut my effort at revealing the LIE that is controlling our country. I think my explanation lays out the reality where yours distorts it due to you view of what you believe the word is saying. WE THE PEOPLE have no Caesar. The three branches wouldn’t exist without WE THE PEOPLE. And if you get a chance, please read the Declaration of Independence closely…where it states the following…GOVERNMENTS ARE INSTITUTED AMONG MEN BY THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED. DERIVING THEIR JUST POWERS. I don’t consent to laws that make criminals out of victimless acts. Randy Weaver had his son murdered and his wife murdered over his disobedience of a law that shouldn’t’ exist along side the 2nd amendment itself. You shouldn’t either.Bryan Malinowski was murdered because he didn’t pay a $200 license fee. I don’t consent to lies and tyranny. It just isn’t he Christian thing to be doing.
𝐖𝐞 𝐡𝐨𝐥𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐭𝐫𝐮𝐭𝐡𝐬 𝐭𝐨 𝐛𝐞 𝐬𝐞𝐥𝐟-𝐞𝐯𝐢𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐭, 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐧 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐜𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐚𝐥, 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐲 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐂𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐨𝐫 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐜𝐞𝐫𝐭𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐮𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐞𝐧𝐚𝐛𝐥𝐞 𝐑𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭𝐬, 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐚𝐦𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐋𝐢𝐟𝐞, 𝐋𝐢𝐛𝐞𝐫𝐭𝐲 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐮𝐫𝐬𝐮𝐢𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐇𝐚𝐩𝐩𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐬.--𝐓𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐞𝐜𝐮𝐫𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐫𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭𝐬, 𝐆𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐧𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐧𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐭𝐮𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐚𝐦𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐞𝐧, 𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐠𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐧𝐞𝐝,
Great reply to the pastor 👍
As individuals, ‘we’ aren’t final arbiters of the law.
As individuals, ‘our’ appeal to the authorities for real or perceived injustice(s) has a proper channel and venue. This is the right and just approach to governance – moderated, careful and thoughtful. Consensus. (read: more than one individual.)
Our founding fathers weren’t substitutes for God (and neither they nor their work should be revered as such either) but His servants. The people consent to governance in obedience to God’s word – not that we are an authority to answer to in and of ourselves.
I think that’s where you’re derailing.
When you assert, “A major portion of your life you are SELF RULED” you are only illustrating what the carnal, fallen flesh desires. Self-rule, self-governance, complete and total unrestricted autonomy to do whatever, say whatever, whenever and to whomever I want.
This is the desire and prison of the flesh that you seem to be appealing to for support.
Jesus on the other hand, demonstrates the opposite. E.g. John 5:30 (ESV) “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
We do need to be obedient to God, and the way He has chosen to implement His laws are via the institution of earthly government. Therefore, barring same said government contradicting God’s moral law, we are to be obedient to it.
“You don’t need somebody to tell you not to rob, rape and steal. The only time you deal with any form of government is when it is stealing from you in the myriad of ways it does so.”
This is the same argument Israelites made as they demanded an earthly king – we don’t need God telling us what’s right and wrong, we demand to be like all other nations. Can’t you see that you are arguing from a position of self-authority? As if we are the final arbiters of moral right and wrong? We aren’t, and that’s a massive problem if that’s where you’re at.
God ordained government to exercise His authority over US, not the other way around. If that offends you, it offends the flesh – the natural man who desperately seeks to seize control for himself. The Constitution isn’t the bible, but some appear to value it above the bible which is distinctly problematic.
Also note, the framework of our Constitutional Republic assumes a God-fearing and faithfully Christian people, not a Godless, flesh-worshipping pagan one where everyone who has a bone to pick with God will find ways to subvert what are otherwise well-crafted blueprints for a kind of allied partnership governance in tune with God’s word.
“Your view of Romans 13 is NOT the view the Founding Fathers took of it. And I agree with their view vs the one you adhere to.”
Strange, what I read is that the founders largely agreed that government is instituted by God, but that did not equate to divine endorsement of kings or individual rulers etc.
Further, not all of the founding fathers agreed with each other about the fuller context of Romans 13:1-7. Some of them were Christians, some weren’t, and those men were significantly influenced by thinkers of their time such as John Locke and Samuel Rutherford.
e.g. "It is the duty of all men in society... to submit to the government of God, and not of man." — John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1813.
“The king is not the law, but the servant of the law.” — Samuel Rutherford, Lex, Rex.
I think it’s reasonable to argue that the founders could agree that obedience to government necessarily implies obedience to a just and moral governance by same. This is what I agree with as it relates to Romans 13:1-7.
Now, please articulate how my view of Romans 13 contradicts (a) the balance of scripture and (b) how it is in opposition to what you perceive is the ‘side’ of the founding fathers.
“Thanks again for the long, lengthy effort you have made to rebut my effort at revealing the LIE that is controlling our country. I think my explanation lays out the reality where yours distorts it due to you [sic] view of what you believe the word is saying.”
Be careful here. Pointing fingers accusing me of distorting things without clear scriptural support to illustrate what you claim are distortions does not reveal the fruit of the spirit. Instead, it shows the opposite. I am simply here to help you see and understand God’s perspective, not man’s perspective.
I have only provided you with clear, scripturally based support concerning God’s take on government and the use of His authority to moderate the affairs of mankind. If you believe otherwise, please cite, using in-context scriptural references to help me see your counterpoint.
Otherwise, this just comes off as resisting any and all correction and reproof.